Curse

arcanemacabre · Jun 12, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

I just want to say, when I started playing GW, I started with a caster. When I made it about halfway through, I then made a warrior and awed at how much easier I made it through the same missions. The more I played with both, the better I got (obviously), but I noticed something after a while... the better I got with the caster, it seemed more powerful and everything seemed so much easier; the better I got with the warrior, it seemed less powerful and everything seemed to get a lot harder.

The mobs in the end of the desert and the Southern Shiverpeaks is what began to color my vision of the two types of playstyles. They became increasingly aimed to take out the heartier, armored, melee-flailing targets, and more susceptible to the ranged magic slingers. The more advanced the game gets, the more melee defense it pours out, but never really has any caster defense - mainly because there exists very little of it in the game (at the time).

I can see how someone can think, after a while, that casters have it better than melee. Thing is, it's not true. I found out eventually why the skills and mobs are set up this way - melee is a lot more dangerous and needs all the defensive skills (and mechanics, like blind) to counter it. The casters and their spells are already balanced enough, and significantly weakened in comparison, so there doesn't need to be as much caster defense, like daze.

Ah well, long live warriors!

artay · Jun 12, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Whenever I play a warrior for a long time and go back to ele I get lazy, mostly because once you hit spacebar, you can just spam your adrenal skills till the cows come home, you're latched onto your target with autorun. With eles you have to think about positioning and moving around.

But hey, thats just me. (This is different in High level pvp{well, most of it})

Lauryn · Jun 12, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Just thought I'd add that people seem to be missing that casters 'cast', they can spend up to 3 seconds standing still completely unable to kite damage (without the aid of another player, but of course then that is 2 players basically trying to cast 1 spell) while a warrior's attack skills (seeing as this thread is mainly about damage output) are instantaneous.

So the adrenaline gained by the warrior and the amount of skills he/she could use needs to be put against the time spent by casters casting.

--

Also to a point a few pages back (therefore lost the quote seeing as I read the whole thread

lol) said something similar to:

How is a warrior going to put dazed on me while he's blind

But obviously thats just silly,

1. Monk (or self) condition removal is incredibly common (Mending Touch anyone?) so that blind isn't going to last full duration on a decent team

2. The same can be said for the caster, How will you blind the warrior when you're already dazed? (Thanks to a broad-head arrow ranger hiding round the back lines or what have you) and of course point 1 applies to you as well - although self condition removal would be difficult when constantly being interrupted

--

Anyway thats just my opinion, personally I would chose Warrior over Elementalist for dealing damage in PvP and visa versa for PvE, the elementalists saving grace here is the poor AI which allows AoE spells to hit for thousands of damage to large mobs

Guildmaster Cain · Jun 12, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Rangers can do pretty annoyin interrupting and degen to casters. Plus they usually have high ele armor.

In the end, it all comes down to the right build for the right job. Suppose theres a caster build that pwns melee/ranged, I am sure I can come up with a build that pwns that caster. In turn, I can come up with a counter-build to that melee/ranged. Then it is possible to make a counter-counter build. Etc.

It's all in the luck of the draw, how the build of your opponent turns out. There is no caster or melee/ranged build that pwns all others. Though my Cursing necro comes really close. Pretty much kills everything melee/ranged, only some very good BoA sin could win 50% of the time. But I am sure I can counter myself with another pwn build if I want to.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 12, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

Acolyte of Balthazar is a fun one in hard mode, however.

I don’t deny Acolyte of Balthazar is a nasty boss but hes not a Warrior is he

hes a Dervish

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem

hmmm well the boss part is really ignorant. You do understand that the bosses do 2x the normal dmg? not to mention the fast casts..... so duh a boss with ancestors rage will do over 200 dmg.

You do realise Factions and NF Warriors bosses also have there damage doubled

and yet there still no threat

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem

can your ele do 125 dmg + deepwound? over 225 dmg? thats with 500 health. I seriously doubt it, or people would just run eles in all pvp.

Well without the deepwound but Yes my Ele can do that kinda damage pretty easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem

Good ele out dmging a warrior? what do you think a good ele is? someone who will play against a subpar player who will stand in aoe? sounds like it.

Do realise a Good Ele can snare targets in AoE so they cant escape and not all Ele builds use AoE to say they do is just silly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

What build you you say? Oh, yeah. A 55 with SV. A build that abuses game mechanics (and certain quest rewards...) to farm dumbass AI in specific places.
A practical and viable build for general use? Hell no.
Legitimate example pl0x.

I did - a Vampiric Spirit Necro, an invoke Lightning Ele, an Inepitude Mesmer, there u go theres 3 such examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

In seriousness, a SF ele *can* outdamage a warrior... in a PvE/AB situation, where your opponents are retarded enough to ball up and be flamed to death.
In actual competitive play (observer mode, much?), warriors are used as main damage dealers and eles aren't... care to explain why if 'good eles' can outdamage 'good warriors'?

As mentioned above a good ele knows when and hwo to use AoE spells and often will Snare people in AoE. Why do Warriors try to get out of AoE as quick as possible? – because its massively damaging. You cant Deny that. I neither deny a warrior can kill a caster, especially if they are set up to counter casters with KD as daze etc. however what I am saying is a Generic Caster is more damaging than a generic Warrior this is why Warriors are more often than not left to be killed last.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

I'm curious to what you run if you always avoid everything that could possibly be considered "cookie cutter".

Well I run whatever I find to be very effective, if that means I have to have a skill or two from a cookie cutter build that’s ok, but I don’t believe in using a “preset” build from someone else, that’s true Cookie Cutter builds (one that every skill is just copied from 1 person to the next) I like to make my own builds and ill change a skill or two my suggestion if a party member needs me to but i wont change to a "preset" build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

We're arguing from two different perspectives anyway. From the sound of it, you play mostly PvE. Me, PvP. Two different ballgames mostly, although I still believe warrior is damage king in both. I'm too lazy to do the calculations though, and not feeling like arguing all day, so I'll leave this topic with both of us clinging to our beliefs. It's mostly a pointless debate anyway, since both classes are needed in good teams.

In the words of ensign – Peace

Keero89 · Jun 12, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

In other MMORPGs, I would say yes, Casters have an easy trip to the top due to their power. Maybe not at low levels, but medium and up, they got it made.

[In my opinion]
...Not so in GuildWars. You try to pull groups and act like the tank, you're gonna get smacked. You try to take on multiple warriors in PvP, you're gonna get spanked. You try to cast your massive skills to do uber damage while under decent aggro, you're gonna get slapped. You want an easy class? Go play WoW. GuildWars is all about tactics, timing, management, and skimpy male Paragon skirts. T_T Whoops, maybe not the last, but still, casters are not the end-all. I <3 balance.

Now if we could only give all melee classes huge energy pools, fast casting, soul reaping AND 'ubar'-signets of utter doom... then it would be balanced in your view, correct? >_<

ValaOfTheFens · Jun 12, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

In terms of 1 on 1, many say an assassin will get a spell caster anytime, or Warriors give out incredible dps against spellcasters.

Ummm...no one ever says that. Well...the nubs might but no one who's been playing for a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

In PvP it should be apparent. Blind, the skill that pretty much ends any melee attack without removal is Easy to apply. Daze the skill to apply on a spell caster has very few options that aren't elite, and among each class those elite options are also few. Anti Melee hexes aswell are spread between both Necro and Mesmer. A Deadly arts assassin has siphon strength it won't do anything to a spellcaster but to melee its a large nuisance until removed.

Most caster professions only have one blind skill(Necros don't have a Blind skill at all) and they don't often figure into their PvP builds, save 1vs1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Of course the obvious reply is Bring removal, Anything applied to a spellcaster is the same, bring removal.

Removal never works the way you want it to. Mainly because by the time you remove the spell or hex it is reapplied and you're back where you started. Bring interrupts and prevent unfavorable spells from being cast.

TurinPT · Jun 12, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

gah, just had a RA game: we were 2 sins, they were 2 necros... not even hex breaker could help me >.< a simple 10 energy spell and bam... shutdown for 30 seconds.

Healers Wisper · Jun 12, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

ok this thread seems kinda funny to me. Melee vs casters and casters have the upper hand? Ever heard of interupt? I play my necro mostly, SS, SV, MM, and BiP builds. there are two classes I struggle with consistantly in anykind of 1v1. those are mesmer and ranger. Both because they have a high interupt factorand can prevent me from doing anykind of dmg.

I'll admit warriors make me drool and I usually keep them around the longest, esp if I am in 55 mode cause they can't kill me the same way as the other classes can and provide me with a constant energy gain. But that isn't there job in a team fucntion. Warriors are supposed to take damage that others (casters/fleshies) can't and Kill other melee charactors.

I have found that the balance in this game is pretty good, everyclass I have played (which is all but paragon) seem to have two classes they kill very well and two that they struggle against. But I think it has little to do with Caster vs. Melee

Buster · Jun 12, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

As far as PVE is concerned, as long as you aren't a sin then life is good in GW because people hardly takes sins in their pve groups unless they go with guildies. Everyone else is good to go.

Plague · Jun 13, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Short answer?

Yes.

Longer answer...

Melee attackers are simple to shut down or grief.

*For an Assassin, all you have to do is block a single attack to throw off their chain. Sometimes, just remove a hex or condition.

*For a Warrior, the simplest way to deal with them is to have a blocking skill. They're slow to spike you, and often need help from teammates to make a kill against monks. There are exceptions, but I consider the Warrior to be the least threatening of all the melee classes, excluding knockdown warriors, which are still usually relying on teammates to make the kill while they annoy you and sometimes exhaust themselves with caster skills like Shock.

*For a Dervish, the damage is usually pretty steady and can be pretty random. Once again, one block skill will ruin their day in most cases. I won't even go into all the ways to rape them via their enchantments.

*Paragon... haha. Well, whatever.

*Rangers I don't really consider melees, obviously. As the most well-rounded class, they're the most annoying to deal with. But as usual, just using one block skill will typically save your life.

Notice the common trend here? Blind isn't the end-all-be-all answer. All the caster classes have some way of denying physical attacks, but you don't even *need* to make a build designed around denying melee. Just bring Guardian. Bring Whirling Defense. Bring Signet of Midnight. Whatever. There are a lot of choices. You only need one skill that can be spammed, or at least used at the last second to build yourself back up.

Casters, on the other hand, can often deal out more damage than physical attackers. They're also more difficult to shut down most of the time. You can shout "Mesmer!" but Mesmer skills require you to time your attacks to theirs, or are conditional in some way. Even energy-denial skills aren't as powerful or spammable as they used to be, so you can't completely shut down a target 100%. I'll reiterate, with physical attackers, since all their damage output comes from their weapon, just shut down that and suddenly all they can do is heal themselves.

Physical attackers are either all-around, as in the case of warriors and dervishes, or are designed to hit and run, like an assassin. Or they are designed to be useless, like the paragon.

Casters are more hit and miss characters. They aren't all-around, so depending on who you meet in a fight, either you'll be screwed or you'll dominate them. Physical attackers can take on mostly anyone but are more easily shut down.

So yeah, physical attackers get kind of screwed, especially in PvP, but they're a little more reliable. At least to me anyway.

freekedoutfish · Jun 13, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

You seem to have missed the key fact that (in terms of an elemental) alot of their most devistating spells or skills have long casting times.

From a piro elemental perspective they do anyway! You can very easily interupt or deactivate a caster with a ranger or mesma!

Casters are a support class for a reason, because they stay at the back and cast from a distance. Up close and person most dont last 2 seconds.

Not unless you know a good armor boosting or protection build. But those arent much use in PvE, because you dont want casters upfront anyway.

Casters are good at dmg yes, but defensively they require a monk to heal and a tank to protect them!

glountz · Jun 13, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

Casters, on the other hand, can often deal out more damage than physical attackers. They're also more difficult to shut down most of the time. You can shout "Mesmer!" but Mesmer skills require you to time your attacks to theirs, or are conditional in some way. Even energy-denial skills aren't as powerful or spammable as they used to be, so you can't completely shut down a target 100%. I'll reiterate, with physical attackers, since all their damage output comes from their weapon, just shut down that and suddenly all they can do is heal themselves.

That's why of course you see every day full-caster teams owning top GvG and holding halls.
Do I play the same game than you?
I wonder.

Plague · Jun 13, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

I have no idea what you're talking about. Sarcasm? If you're pointing out that team builds are balanced... well, duh.

In other news, noticed this question earlier... but a warrior can indeed daze a target while he's blind with Headbutt + Plague Touch. One of my favorite builds.